15th September 2013
A version of Britney Spears' 'Toxic' read William Shatner / Jon Pertwee spoken word-style performance by John Richards with Petra Elliot providing the chorus was much better, funnier than an acapella version that they had planned.
I also hate noisy fans.
Welcome to Nine / Women.
I also don't really like Rose Tyler.
So it was a somewhat relief that not *all* of the podcast recording was devoted to Rose Tyler.
There was some discussion of the gender politics in Doctor Who which I do find interesting. Gender politics in television media interests me full stop.
There's I think it's called the Bechdel test that you can apply to a TV show, which basically looks at a scene with two women in it who talk to each other about something other than a man.
Doctor Who, when there are two women in a scene usually does remarkably well with this test. It would probably do amazingly well if you excluded the Doctor from the definition of a male.
New Who was discussed in this recording a lot more than classic Who. Though Barbara Wright was mentioned and chatted about between Ben and John before the guests came on stage.
I did find it interesting how Celeste Liddle came into Doctor Who - via Torchwood, which is an interesting way to find your way into Doctor Who. Considering that Torchhwood is a pretty gender diverse show. There's pan-sexual Jack Harkness, Ianto Jones apparently straight (he has/had a girlfriend who got Cyber-converted), Owen Harper, Toshiko Sato and Gwen Cooper. Gwen is the only one of the main cast that's firmly straight and has a boyfriend and then also has a wedding to him.
In the first episode Owen is both a possibly rapist and also probably bisexual or at the very least not gender fixed. It depends how you read the first episode, but basically he uses an alien spray to make a woman attracted to him, but she clearly has no interest in him (and has a boyfriend), then he uses the magic spray and she (and her boyfriend) are altered in their attraction and become attracted to him.
Incidentally there's also another reading that suggests rape and that's between the Master and his wife Lucy. It depends on how you read the situation, but there is at the very least assault and very likely sexual, though maybe not penetrative assault. He's clearly hypnotised her, but when she's on the Valiant she also has been physically abused. She also kills him.
Back to Torchwood, Toshiko also has a fluid sexuality and gets into a relationship with a woman who's actually an alien.
Going from the broad Torchwood to Doctor Who is something of a step backwards in many ways.
There was a lot of discussion of Rose Tyler, a character who I’ve never really liked. The panel made the comment that it’s the fault of some writing and even some lines. Tansy Rayner Roberts especially saying that when she watched episodes she just ‘mentally edited’ out the lines that were particularly bad or negative to the character.
I’m not like that however, for me what’s there on screen (or in print or on audio) is what that character says.
So I can never really shake the ‘clawing eyes out’ scene (as they called it at the podcast recording) between Rose an Sarah Jane Smith in School Reunion. It was just such a selfish scene for Rose. The scene that’s similar when Donna and Martha meet where it’s friendly and fun was how that scene should have happened.
But in School Reunion it just made Rose seem petulant and childish.
Of School Reunion it was also discussed the way that it slightly retconned Sarah Jane Smith’s relationship with the Doctor. That idea that she had put her life on hold, waiting, almost pining for the Doctor to return, which was unnecessary. That she would measure herself against him in that way.
The novels and audios have in any case filled in that, Sarah had a rich and exciting life before and after ‘School Reunion’ so what happens in that story is more the odd one out of how the series has dealt with her character.
The women on the panel did raise something interesting that I’d not considered before and that was that the Ninth Doctor treats Rose much like an abusive partner.
Looking back on how the Ninth Doctor is towards Rose and to a lesser extent Adam Mitchell there is a surprising amount of abuse levelled at them by the Ninth Doctor.
Freema Agyeman and her character of Martha Jones was also discussed. That the decision to have the Tenth Doctor seemingly continuously comparing her to Rose Tyler was a mistake and that it lessened her presence on the show and within the TARDIS.
Additionally the character of Martha Jones was inconsistently written, with her early episodes being quite strong but later in the series, or perhaps in the shooting schedule she was less able to fight to keep more of Martha’s character in the episodes.
Further along the nature of 'companions' was discussed, how that the term 'companion' is somewhat meta-referencing, not just the show itself but the fandom that's arisen. Pre-1989 the term 'companion' wasn't used very often asserted Ben McKenzie. That the Big Finish Productions audios have added to this, often using the term ‘companion’ and that it was was something that’s only really started since Doctor Who’s become more aware of itself and the fans and I suppose its audience.
Before 1989 they were the Doctor's 'friends' or during the 1970s his assistants. Which basically means Liz Shaw and Jo Grant. Sarah Jane Smith didn't really become his assistant in the laboratory work sort of way.
The lack of female writers in New Who was also raised. Even in classic Who there wasn't exactly a huge amount of female writers. Though there were women behind the scenes; Verity Lambert and Delia Derbyshire are two notable names from early in the show's history (right at the start). It seemed back then the BBC were more for experimenting, but now they're somewhat less so. Only Helen Raynor has written for the series and Daleks in Manhattan was one of those stories. The very quite bad Daleks in Manhattan.
Finally the question of a female Doctor was raised. Everyone seemed to think it was a good idea.
I disagree, and slightly agree with their reasoning.
If the show was to be rebooted, go right back to the start and reboot the show with a new lore and whatever, then sure, make the Doctor female. Alternatively when we get to the magical thirteenth incarnation of the Doctor, potentially his last life, depending on which bit of continuity you follow, then sure, do a soft reboot and start the regenerations again as a woman.
But just introducing a female Doctor in because of some wish for a female Doctor...no.
I think just regenerating the Doctor into a woman to have a woman for the sake of it cheapens it and diminishes the role of women in Doctor Who.
The Doctor has had female equals and should continue to have. Many of the companions have been presented as equally capable as the Doctor. Liz Shaw (played by Caroline John) was just as much a scientist as the Doctor was, and was replaced by Jo Grant because in the words of the Brigadier the Doctor doesn’t need a scientist he needs someone ‘to hold test tubes and tell him how brilliant he is’.
Romana (played by Mary Tamm and Lalla Ward) was presented as the Doctor’s equal, quite literally, being a Time Lady.
Sarah Jane Smith illustrates this as being beyond an equal of the Doctor by actually sustaining a whole other series ‘The Sarah Jane Adventures’ spun off from her appearance in ‘School Reunion’.
The Tenth and Eleventh Doctors even appearing in episodes of ‘The Sarah Jane Adventures’.
One argument I've read against the call for a female Doctor is there's no big calls for a female Superman; a female Batman; a female The Hulk or a female equivalent of Thor.
These are all fairly mythic, comic-style characters, that is more or less what the Doctor is. He's been around for 50 years (although an argument from history isn't a justification in and of itself) but the character of the Doctor as a male wanderer in time and space is something that's been established, it is a part of the show's mythos. Changing his gender because 'it's time we had one' isn't enough. The universe in which he exists should change, he should gain equals or even betters rather than have his being, his character be changed to accommodate what we feel should be done or what we should have.
To end, and return to my first point, vocal fans.
This and indeed all the other recordings were *recordings* they’re podcast recordings.
You don’t need to be shining your sonic screwdriver with its sound effect all the time, as Ben McKenzie said there’s already enough sound and feedback on the mics without you adding that in.
Also, talking during the recording. The guy in front of me actually asked the vocal fans (who were seated beside me) during the break half way *not* to talk during it, which was good and something I was close to saying myself, but I mostly just slowly brewed on it rather than acting on it.
A version of Britney Spears' 'Toxic' read William Shatner / Jon Pertwee spoken word-style performance by John Richards with Petra Elliot providing the chorus was much better, funnier than an acapella version that they had planned.
I also hate noisy fans.
Welcome to Nine / Women.
I also don't really like Rose Tyler.
So it was a somewhat relief that not *all* of the podcast recording was devoted to Rose Tyler.
There was some discussion of the gender politics in Doctor Who which I do find interesting. Gender politics in television media interests me full stop.
There's I think it's called the Bechdel test that you can apply to a TV show, which basically looks at a scene with two women in it who talk to each other about something other than a man.
Doctor Who, when there are two women in a scene usually does remarkably well with this test. It would probably do amazingly well if you excluded the Doctor from the definition of a male.
New Who was discussed in this recording a lot more than classic Who. Though Barbara Wright was mentioned and chatted about between Ben and John before the guests came on stage.
I did find it interesting how Celeste Liddle came into Doctor Who - via Torchwood, which is an interesting way to find your way into Doctor Who. Considering that Torchhwood is a pretty gender diverse show. There's pan-sexual Jack Harkness, Ianto Jones apparently straight (he has/had a girlfriend who got Cyber-converted), Owen Harper, Toshiko Sato and Gwen Cooper. Gwen is the only one of the main cast that's firmly straight and has a boyfriend and then also has a wedding to him.
In the first episode Owen is both a possibly rapist and also probably bisexual or at the very least not gender fixed. It depends how you read the first episode, but basically he uses an alien spray to make a woman attracted to him, but she clearly has no interest in him (and has a boyfriend), then he uses the magic spray and she (and her boyfriend) are altered in their attraction and become attracted to him.
Incidentally there's also another reading that suggests rape and that's between the Master and his wife Lucy. It depends on how you read the situation, but there is at the very least assault and very likely sexual, though maybe not penetrative assault. He's clearly hypnotised her, but when she's on the Valiant she also has been physically abused. She also kills him.
Back to Torchwood, Toshiko also has a fluid sexuality and gets into a relationship with a woman who's actually an alien.
Going from the broad Torchwood to Doctor Who is something of a step backwards in many ways.
There was a lot of discussion of Rose Tyler, a character who I’ve never really liked. The panel made the comment that it’s the fault of some writing and even some lines. Tansy Rayner Roberts especially saying that when she watched episodes she just ‘mentally edited’ out the lines that were particularly bad or negative to the character.
I’m not like that however, for me what’s there on screen (or in print or on audio) is what that character says.
So I can never really shake the ‘clawing eyes out’ scene (as they called it at the podcast recording) between Rose an Sarah Jane Smith in School Reunion. It was just such a selfish scene for Rose. The scene that’s similar when Donna and Martha meet where it’s friendly and fun was how that scene should have happened.
But in School Reunion it just made Rose seem petulant and childish.
Of School Reunion it was also discussed the way that it slightly retconned Sarah Jane Smith’s relationship with the Doctor. That idea that she had put her life on hold, waiting, almost pining for the Doctor to return, which was unnecessary. That she would measure herself against him in that way.
The novels and audios have in any case filled in that, Sarah had a rich and exciting life before and after ‘School Reunion’ so what happens in that story is more the odd one out of how the series has dealt with her character.
The women on the panel did raise something interesting that I’d not considered before and that was that the Ninth Doctor treats Rose much like an abusive partner.
Looking back on how the Ninth Doctor is towards Rose and to a lesser extent Adam Mitchell there is a surprising amount of abuse levelled at them by the Ninth Doctor.
Freema Agyeman and her character of Martha Jones was also discussed. That the decision to have the Tenth Doctor seemingly continuously comparing her to Rose Tyler was a mistake and that it lessened her presence on the show and within the TARDIS.
Additionally the character of Martha Jones was inconsistently written, with her early episodes being quite strong but later in the series, or perhaps in the shooting schedule she was less able to fight to keep more of Martha’s character in the episodes.
Further along the nature of 'companions' was discussed, how that the term 'companion' is somewhat meta-referencing, not just the show itself but the fandom that's arisen. Pre-1989 the term 'companion' wasn't used very often asserted Ben McKenzie. That the Big Finish Productions audios have added to this, often using the term ‘companion’ and that it was was something that’s only really started since Doctor Who’s become more aware of itself and the fans and I suppose its audience.
Before 1989 they were the Doctor's 'friends' or during the 1970s his assistants. Which basically means Liz Shaw and Jo Grant. Sarah Jane Smith didn't really become his assistant in the laboratory work sort of way.
The lack of female writers in New Who was also raised. Even in classic Who there wasn't exactly a huge amount of female writers. Though there were women behind the scenes; Verity Lambert and Delia Derbyshire are two notable names from early in the show's history (right at the start). It seemed back then the BBC were more for experimenting, but now they're somewhat less so. Only Helen Raynor has written for the series and Daleks in Manhattan was one of those stories. The very quite bad Daleks in Manhattan.
Finally the question of a female Doctor was raised. Everyone seemed to think it was a good idea.
I disagree, and slightly agree with their reasoning.
If the show was to be rebooted, go right back to the start and reboot the show with a new lore and whatever, then sure, make the Doctor female. Alternatively when we get to the magical thirteenth incarnation of the Doctor, potentially his last life, depending on which bit of continuity you follow, then sure, do a soft reboot and start the regenerations again as a woman.
But just introducing a female Doctor in because of some wish for a female Doctor...no.
I think just regenerating the Doctor into a woman to have a woman for the sake of it cheapens it and diminishes the role of women in Doctor Who.
The Doctor has had female equals and should continue to have. Many of the companions have been presented as equally capable as the Doctor. Liz Shaw (played by Caroline John) was just as much a scientist as the Doctor was, and was replaced by Jo Grant because in the words of the Brigadier the Doctor doesn’t need a scientist he needs someone ‘to hold test tubes and tell him how brilliant he is’.
Romana (played by Mary Tamm and Lalla Ward) was presented as the Doctor’s equal, quite literally, being a Time Lady.
Sarah Jane Smith illustrates this as being beyond an equal of the Doctor by actually sustaining a whole other series ‘The Sarah Jane Adventures’ spun off from her appearance in ‘School Reunion’.
The Tenth and Eleventh Doctors even appearing in episodes of ‘The Sarah Jane Adventures’.
One argument I've read against the call for a female Doctor is there's no big calls for a female Superman; a female Batman; a female The Hulk or a female equivalent of Thor.
These are all fairly mythic, comic-style characters, that is more or less what the Doctor is. He's been around for 50 years (although an argument from history isn't a justification in and of itself) but the character of the Doctor as a male wanderer in time and space is something that's been established, it is a part of the show's mythos. Changing his gender because 'it's time we had one' isn't enough. The universe in which he exists should change, he should gain equals or even betters rather than have his being, his character be changed to accommodate what we feel should be done or what we should have.
To end, and return to my first point, vocal fans.
This and indeed all the other recordings were *recordings* they’re podcast recordings.
You don’t need to be shining your sonic screwdriver with its sound effect all the time, as Ben McKenzie said there’s already enough sound and feedback on the mics without you adding that in.
Also, talking during the recording. The guy in front of me actually asked the vocal fans (who were seated beside me) during the break half way *not* to talk during it, which was good and something I was close to saying myself, but I mostly just slowly brewed on it rather than acting on it.